On Growth Two

39. Yokei Kono

Deputy Minister for Education Yokei Kono was named by Time magazine among the foremost 150 future leaders of the world. He was born in Tokyo in 1937 and studied at Waseda University, Tokyo, and at Stanford University. He is a member of the House of Deputies for the Liberal Democratic Party, the party of Premier Tanaka. He is also vice-chairman of the Diet Policy Committee and has been involved for some time in educational problems. He became Deputy Minister of Education in the Tanaka Cabinet in 1971. Students at Hitotsubashi University, Yasuyuki Maruyama and his colleagues, drew the attention

[p. 280]

of the author to Yokei Kono. This conversation took place at the Ministry of Education in Tokyo.

The Club of Rome recently met in Tokyo to study the future of mankind. Its members concluded that the world is confronted not only by material problems, but to a very large extent by sociopolitical and psychological ones. While scientists are seriously considering our future, what is the role of politicians in this context?

As a statesman, I believe that we should devise and implement policies that shift the focus from economic growth or materialistic approaches, to the quality of life. This has too long remained a lip service on the part of politicians. Economic progress and subsequent urbanization are largely responsible for new social and environmental problems. The political process should be adapted to meet these new needs. It is the task of politicians to provide physical conditions by means of legislation upon which people can lead a stable and sound psychological life. The psychological aspects of people have been the most deeply affected in contemporary society but have not been given proper attention. To attain such a goal, politicians must become much more sensitive to the voice of the people as well as responsive to the findings of such groups as the Club of Rome in considering new policies and measures conducive to a better environment.

Also, though politics should not get into the spiritual aspect of people, we should take into account a changing value system, especially in this country, for two value-orientations now coexist: group orientation based on traditional and prewar values, and more individually oriented values among the postwar generations, influenced by Western culture and predominantly by the American system of education, which we have used for the last quarter of century. Young people are more independent and individualistic. This is in itself a good thing, I think. At the same time, however, it seems to me that they are becoming increasingly a ‘lonely crowd’ and so looking for a community with which they can identify themselves. Without it, I do not think that they are happy and psychologically satisfied no matter how free and materially wealthy they may be.

Would you say then that the shift in Japan is from a predominantly group orientation toward a more individual orientation?

Well, what I mean to say is that people seem to be seeking a harmony

[p. 281]

between the old and the new; that is, between group and individual orientations. They are taking advantage of the wisdom of the traditional Japanese values and modem thinking. This does not mean people are going back to the old value system, or that they are completely adapted to individualism in the Western sense.

But what about the young students, such as those I met at Hitotsubashi University, who suggested I interview you? One sees blue jeans everywhere at your schools, but how deep does Westernization go?

Of course, at present, as you say, the young Japanese look Westernized. They look happy, carefree, and independent. However, this does not prove that Westernization has fundamentally changed their way of thinking or mentality. Their value orientation is not necessarily based on individualism in terms of the general notion in Europe and the United States. Their feelings are somewhat confused in this rapidly changing society. They are materially rich and better educated, yet they are increasingly dissatisfied with life. This was demonstrated in the recent national survey which compared them with the youth of other parts of the world. In a sense, they are struggling with the so-called indentity issue. While they strive for self-realization, I think they wish to have a sense of community. They appreciate cohesion with their friends or family. Nevertheless, I would not say they want to return to the old family system. That's why I said that today's Japanese youth are implicitly trying to harmonize Western individualism and the traditional wisdom of the group. This to me is a great human experiment and significant to us and to people elsewhere.

It seems that the leadership in China has succeeded in manipulating Chinese youth. This could be called nationwide brainwashing. While no one would want to follow that example, some form of leadership of the young seems needed in such a society as Japan.

I do not believe that manipulation should be employed in the political education of the young. De Gaulle once tried to educate young people by participation in the political processes. I very much respect this kind of method. But in the future, I believe, politics by participation, in terms of de Gaulle's concept, will be replaced by politics based on joint programming or joint planning. Politicians and the nation itself need to set up mechanisms to work together in making plans or working out problems and programs.

Are you speaking of other continents as Africa or Latin America?

That is right. Since stages of political development differ, processes will

[p. 282]

be necessarily varied. Each should not impose its pace upon the other. However, international cooperation should be enhanced in these common endeavors.

It is necessary in this country that politicians and the people communicate and work together more closely. Politicians tend to fail in grasping the real needs of the people, who in turn no longer look to politics for solutions. Such a discrepancy is detrimental and must be overcome. Statesmen should first take initiatives to change such a vicious cycle, and the people, too, need to develop new, positive attitudes and willingly cooperate with the government in projecting a better future society. Establishing a closer link between the people and politics by means of communication, feedback, and interactions is the only way to find a desirable course of action for tomorrow. I hope similar processes will take place internationally.

You yourself belong to the new generation. Do you feel affinity with the young?

Yes, I do. And I think we share the view that the future of Japan depends entirely on the young men and women. Therefore, it is all the more important for political leaders to leave sufficient room for them to have multiple options and decisions about their own future. We have tried to develop this country in terms of politics, economics, and other areas affecting national life. Sooner or later, our generation's time will be over and those who are at school now will take our places. More room should be set aside for them to select. We are responsible for preparing them to make their own decisions in order to forge a better society. Here, the role of education becomes extremely important. This kind of education is not yet being done.

Do you believe that more young men should be accepted into the government in order to train them in assuming responsibilities?

Yes. When I said that education is important, I implied that both intellectual training within the educational institutions and more practical education outside are needed. The present system overemphasizes education aimed at stimulating conceptual thinking. Education aimed at enriching spirituality, the cultivation of sentiments, and career-oriented practical training is largely neglected. We need to educate youth to become mature and responsible adults. Of course, this can be done outside of formal education. Political education is in this category. It is another task for politicians to train young people in such a way that they can make their decisions responsibly.

[p. 283]

Compared to most of your neighbors, your nation is fabulously rich. But the behavior of Japanese businessmen has been criticized. Your Prime Minister became a virtual prisoner in the Presidential Palace when he visited Indonesia. It seems that it will be the task of your youth to improve Japan's image.

I am indeed shocked by the seriousness of this problem. We must realize that such behavior in Southeast Asia is shortsighted and extremely harmful to both sides in the long run. My only hope is that we can turn it into a blessing in disguise in the sense that we would correct such practices and cooperate fully with developing nations.

Again, education should be carried out in such a way that international understanding will be cultivated among the young students. With proper education, they will assume more responsibility and become enlightened leaders of this country. Also, we need to respect and understand other cultures through promotion of international communication and cultural exchange. So far, our country has not sufficiently contributed to international understanding programs. Both the public and the private sectors should expand and qualitatively improve various exchange programs.

Would you say that continued economic growth would also be needed to improve education in all fields?

I have to admit that economic growth as rapid and high as ours impedes the development of educational programs and has distorted our educational patterns. For instance, a great majority of the educational issues we are facing today come from urbanization, which was brought about by economic growth.

Besides, economic growth does not necessarily mean an increase in educational investment. In fact, our national education budget, which used to be one of the highest in the world, now ranks as one of the lowest among the advanced industrial societies in terms of GNP. So far, we have put too much emphasis on tying education to the concept of economics. As a result of economic growth, industries have tried to hire as many people as possible. I mean, of course, that they are trying to recruit personnel with an educational background, preferably university graduates. But now is the time to look at education as a vital instrument of social development, not of economic development.

I believe in lifelong education, which will be more and more important in a postindustrial society. Continuing education will help people enrich the quality of life and will help the country to maintain its overall national capability, which will indirectly benefit economic development.

[p. 284]

Are you optimistic about the future?

I have optimistic views about the future of the world as a whole, for I believe in man's intrinsic wisdom. Otherwise, I would not have become a politician. Man has failed in one regard, and created the global and environmental crisis. Now we have come to realize that we have to overcome this crisis by international cooperation. There are a number of international joint research programs and action programs seeking solutions to the common problems of mankind.

However, I am not as optimistic as Dennis Gabor, to the extent of believing in the perfectibility of man. That is why education must be emphasized: to enable human wisdom or prudent work to find ways and means to make this world a more worthwhile place to live in. Education at school is not enough. Well-coordinated educational programs at home, in the school, and in society must be developed to educate the young to be equipped with such wisdom. I can see great hope for the future only in education.

40. Eshan Naraghi

Eshan Naraghi was born on September 13, 1926, in Iran. He was graduated in economics from the University of Geneva in 1947. In 1952 he obtained his doctorate in sociology at the same university. After working in Iran in various capacities, he obtained a second doctorate in sociology, this time at the Sorbonne. He lectured at the University of Teheran from 1957 to 1967. In 1968 he joined the UNESCO in Paris where he became director of youth activities in 1969. His publications include Contribution méthodologique a l'étude de population dans les pays à statistiques incomplètes and Sciences sociales et leur dévelopement historique.

[p. 285]

I understand that UNESCO considers it one of its aims to maintain and promote the dialogue between young people and the world. This was stated in the brochure Partnership with Youth, published in 1969. Has any progress been made in this sector during the last five years?

To begin with, we have learned to understand that the problems of youth cannot be separated from those of the rest of society. Questions such as upbringing, education, science, culture, and politics should be seen in their social context. There is no such thing as a youth problem which stands apart from society itself.

But Valentina Tereshkova of the Soviet Union, for instance, says that young people in her country are made aware from their earliest days that Soviet society is in urgent need of its young people. Children are taught a sense of purpose. You are therefore probably not speaking about the situation in the socialist countries.

I will come back to this later. UNESCO has understood that the problems of youth concern the entire social system. In 1970, therefore, we entered a new period. We are now treating questions concerning our youth as a social problem. The young people - and it is very important that you understand this - are associated with all the dimensions of social and political life. When we organize symposiums, such as the one in July, 1974, which concerned the place of the artist in our society, a number of young artists participated in them.

So you are trying to be representative of everyone?

To the extent to which this is possible. We have done the same at conferences with scientists concerning the world crisis and problems of the environment. The report made by the Club of Rome was discussed in detail here.

Do you mean to say that the UNESCO organized a meeting at which the Club of Rome problems were discussed?

Young people were among those who were most worried about the future of ecology. We invited them, and very interesting discussions took place. The report of these debates made a great impression upon circles that occupy themselves with these problems.

So this report was a forerunner of the MIT report.

Indeed it was. During the Environmental Conference in Stockholm in 1972 we organized a parallel conference in order to give young people a

[p. 286]

chance to express their viewpoints in these matters as well. We are now doing the same in the field of education; we are doing preparatory work on educational matters all over the world. Young people from all countries have discussed these questions in detail under the auspices of the UNESCO, and the debates were recorded in a brochure entitled Apprendre à être [Learning to be].

During the sixties people in the United States believed that the schools and universities would form the avant-garde in involving youth in social problems or in guiding young people toward accepting more responsibility toward society as a whole. Not much has come out of this.

Let me first reply to your question concerning the socialist countries. We believe that in the developed countries, the industrialized and capitalist countries, a number of spontaneous reactions and actions are shown by the young people, which can often not be foreseen. These are spontaneous manifestations which one should not try to compress into any preconceived plan, and whose direction one should not try to program in advance. For that matter, we believe that what characterizes the youth movement in the socialist countries today is becoming more and more the hesitation or refusal on the part of young people to belong to an organization. The young are more and more refusing to identify themselves with a state organization.

And in China?

That is a different matter. China is a world apart from the rest. The Chinese appear to be satisfied with themselves. Their world is so different that we might say their society has nothing to do with the rest of the world.

Are the young people in China consulted at all?

Theirs is a world in evolution, in revolution, and undergoing a process of permanent change. It is better to leave that development alone for a few years. Afterward it will be possible to obtain a clearer picture. At this moment we simply do not know enough about the situation in China. What is easier for us to judge are the young people in the developed countries. What are they rebelling against? They are rising up against a system of dehumanization. They think that the system does not meet their wishes. I might say, as we express this in sociology, that a kind of tug-of-war has developed between society and its establishment and its culture, as it has evolved with all its ideas. The social system does not agree with the ideas which are now growing. These ideas are expressed by the young. They wish

[p. 287]

to progress beyond what they feel to be a repressive system. That is how a confrontation arises between both groups. Why has an important part of the protest come from the schools and universities in the countries of the West? Because the social system still remains very inflexible, particularly in those countries. The essence of education, including at the universities, is still based on old and outdated values. The young certainly feel that there is something wrong, and that the system no longer agrees with the evolutions taking place in the world. Fierce reactions and revolts are the result. One might say that the young people in the Western countries, perhaps in a confused, primitive, or even slightly unconscious way, express the imperfections of their society. When you read certain authors of the fifties and study their ideas about Western society, you find, for instance, in the writings of American sociologist David Riesman or in those of the Frenchman, Jacques Ellul, the same revolt against mechanization and against the machine leading a life of its own.

The French sociologist, Georges Friedman, spoke already in those days of the mechanization of man, the chopping up of labor as a result of mechanization and, consequently, the chopping up of people's personalities. This was said as far back as twenty years ago. In its totality, human society has become too mechanized. During the fifties, Friedman spoke of a solitary society, the solitary mass, lonely men surrounded by machines. Suddenly the young people of the sixties expressed the same ideas in a natural way in an evolution which might almost be called revolutionary. But the public at large did not see this. For society first needed the advent of the struggle of the young to understand that deep feelings of dissatisfaction prevailed in Western society. The thinkers and sociologists had already felt this. Mechanization was excessive. The large complexes, the multinational industries, these were developments which were bound to lead to a reaction some day. In the West the young are revolting against a certain indirect but very perfidious oppression. Not oppression by a police apparatus, but by the mechanized complex of selection.

We have been talking all this time about the superrich countries. But, while I have been listening to you, I have been thinking of the hundreds of millions of illiterate and very poor people in the Third World. Their problems are not expressed here. Who is listening to them?

Let us not for heaven's sake call them the ‘silent young.’ In the underdeveloped countries there are now a great number of young people who have attended schools but who are unemployed and who will have problems in finding jobs in the future. Egypt is an example.¹

1 See conversation no. 46.

[p. 288]

During my last trip to India, Mohit Sen spoke to me of the disastrous situation in this part of the world.²

Indeed, it is disastrous. In these countries we have badly adapted schools which deform people instead of forming them. Take the young in Africa. The present educational system deforms the young people. They are taken from the countryside and thrown together in large cities, where there is an accumulation of the unemployed, and criminality results.

This is precisely what is happening in India according to Mohit Sen.

I was recently at a world congress about the problems of badly adjusted children. Everyone agreed that in the developing countries the problems of juvenile delinquency are increasing. One person even thought that the growth of criminality in the poor countries was proportionate to the increase in the number of cars. In one town there were a million cars at one time, and when their number had increased to two million a year later, the number of young delinquents in the same town had also doubled. This means that there is a form of barbarism taking place. There are young people without guidance, without protection, in a so-called modem civilization. Development that is left to its own fate without any kind of plan is, after all, a form of barbarism. Young people abandoned by the surrounding world, without guidance, without culture, decultured, anticultural, without any assistance from society means, after all, a situation which leads to a human catastrophe. Young people are victims. And when the young protest or defend themselves, they often become the victims, physically or intellectually, of others. That is how you get young people protesting in matters of politics and then immediately becoming the objects of witch-hunts. The future of the world will therefore depend on the way in which governments succeed in creating an environment or a political and social situation in their countries in which the urgent wishes of the young can be met. This is the problem of the future, the problem of the young in the developing countries, particularly the dangerous situation of the young in the cities of those countries. The young farmers who remain in the countryside are relatively well protected, by traditions and family life, for example. This in spite of the prevailing poverty, ignorance, and illiteracy. The unprotected young are those in the cities. Here there is no structure. And no one to fall back on. The young in the cities are not guided into entering the social system. This is how you get criminality and vandalism. Young people, moving to the cities without being given any possibility to take part in the social processes, become quarrelsome or revolutionary. This development is taking on seri-

2 See conversation no. 34.

[p. 289]

ous dimensions all over the world. In 1972 alone, fifty universities were closed for this reason all over the world.

In one of your speeches you said you had the feeling that a kind of brotherhood was growing up among mankind. But how will the reconciliation take place between the enormous cultural and psychological differences between the young people in the world? After all, Japanese youth function differently from those in Africa.

You know that the human race is open to sense impressions. When children from various countries play with one another they do not express themselves in one specific language; they immediately play together. Instinct and nature make children act as they do. Young people who have not yet been affected by life, whether by certain desires, education, upbringing, or by a particular etiquette of convention, such people are more natural. The result of this natural state is that they are open to one another which is not true of adults. In addition, there is the extremely important development in the changing of ideas through the modern mass communication media, including television. This has caused a tremendous evolution. Or, as Marshall McLuhan says, The earth has become a planetary village. Who are the first and chief products of this world-village? The children! The young, who are now twenty years old, and who have grown up in this new world-village. Not the people of fifty or sixty, for they have not experienced or known the new situation in this sense. It is the young who have learned to know the earth in an entirely different and new way. It is they who react. It is they who are involved. When a space rocket is launched, the Egyptian, American, Swedish, and Dutch children all act in the same way. They are all interested in it. You must talk to children all over the world about certain matters, matters in which they share a common interest. As Jules Verne said, about everything which concerns the basement of their interest, the world, the space of their interest. Moreover, all the young of all the civilizations are nowadays particularly sensitive to the idea of justice. Adults always become cynical later in life. They say that they are more realistic, but it is the young people who in their idealism and naïveté demand justice. No matter whether in the Soviet Union, America, or India, they all share the same feelings.

Do you believe, like Dennis Gabor, in the perfection of man?

No, I do not. I think that this perfection depends on man's living conditions. I believe that conditions are against this. At the same time I believe

[p. 290]

that the young, who express a feeling which is by instinct directed toward the future, are pushing us to a unitary world, a world of solidarity in which people will be much closer to one other. The human race, after all, is an indivisible race. But feelings of solidarity must be developed.

That is the question around which everything turns?

Indeed. It is true, is it not? Abraham Lincoln said during the Civil War that the Americans could not possibly be one nation, one half of slaves and the other of free men.

But an important part of humanity -

I know. One-third of humanity are illiterate and two-thirds live in prosperity and are literate. We cannot afford to say that we, the others, are adopting a civilized attitude toward the rest of the world. That is precisely the point. The world is indivisible. When we speak of religious or cultural values, all of these are linked in every respect. One last example: As a Dutchman, you have experienced the energy crisis. What has it proved? That the world is interdependent and that the prosperity of Europe greatly depends on energy that is not present in Europe itself. If we do not succeed in finding a global balance, Europe will be permanently in the position of energy shortages and of running risks. If other countries do not help you in Europe, your entire prosperity -

What is described in Japan as the drawing of flowers on water?

Indeed. Yet, I believe that the lesson we can learn from this has already been learned by the young. For what is it that the young have been saying for years? The hippies and the others - what have they been saying? That they wish to live modestly and enjoy nature, not destroy it.

We now understand, after our experience of the energy crisis, that those poor hippies who were ridiculed ten years ago were fundamentally right and that they saw matters accurately. The future of the world lies in a certain return to nature, to leading a simple and far less wasteful life. Take the future of paper or books. There is a serious shortage of paper and of forests, which have already been destroyed for the large part, and it is simply impossible to obtain sufficient timber. The same will be true of a great number of other products if we go on wasting as we have done so far. The theoreticians agree that, so far, fifty percent of the world's energy has been wasted in the West.

When the young in your country, in the Netherlands, in England or America, began to form communes and announced that they wished to live simple lives and that life in a consumer society developed to an extreme

[p. 291]

extent was no longer possible, we should have listened to them. They were right. What they said was sensible, even though it is often said that young people have no experience. It was, moreover, the first time in civilization, at least in that of the West, that the young had presented such problems to society. The adults said, Just amuse yourselves, study, work, think of your future. But the young asked, What kind of future? Production? What for? Develop? What for? What are we to do at school?

In your experience in UNESCO do you sincerely believe that the influence of the young is felt in your policies and decisions?

I believe so. I believe that the ideas of the young really play a part in UNESCO. We not only make sure of their presence, but we also use them like yeast, which is added to the flour to rejuvenate the mind, to be open to that freshness which finally means the opening to the whole of life itself.

I am the last person to say that young people are à priori always right in everything. No single race, no single people, and no single age has the complete truth on its side. Modern young people do not pretend this either. It not infrequently happens that they admit their own wrong with the same sincerity or for the same motives with which they fight the certainties of the older generation. But I have the impression that they preserve their inborn purity. I do not know with what instinct they feel the situations of the future or how they anticipate them with a striking accuracy of observation and anticipation which we, their elders, no longer seem to possess. They are like birds, performing great flights across the continents and knowing the islands which lie beyond the horizon, whereas our ocean navigators are unable to see the same things. We who sail the wide oceans without properly knowing where or when we will set foot on land have to accept these signals from the young as messages and force ourselves to decipher and understand them.

What is your impression from your contacts with various young people from many parts of the world? Do they look with optimism toward the year 2000?

A great number of them appear to be pessimistic.

I asked Madame Gandhi, ‘What do you say to the children of India?’ She answered in the spirit of, ‘The children have always found solutions to problems throughout history and they will find them again.’

You are asking, What can we do?

Precisely.

I believe that there is an important task in educating the young. And not

[p. 292]

only in their education, but also in the education of our generation. Older people forget only too soon that they too continue to be in need of education. If we maintain our present methods of education, we will never solve our problems. We should show ourselves considerably more modest in our knowledge, in our ways of acting, and at the same time adopt new ways of bringing up the young. We should try to make it possible for the young people to accept earlier the responsibility for their own lives. Not that we should disengage ourselves from our responsibilities as their elders, for people always need one other. Even after the children have completed their school training. I recently wrote a letter offering my condolences to a friend who was in his fifties and who had just lost his mother. ‘I know,’ I wrote, ‘that your mother was an aged lady, but I realize that the loss of a mother is like losing part of yourself.’ What I mean is, as long as a man has a mother or a father, he has some support on earth. But the loss of an older person is like a whirlpool in the sea. It leaves an irreparable hole in a man's life. That is what I call the interdependence of the generations. It is a mistake, as is done in the West, to split the generations. When generations are split up, the result is that the older generation remains alone and becomes lonely.

We will therefore have to give responsibility to the young, but, at the same time, we will have to stay near them, as older persons. We should certainly not say, ‘Just get along by yourself,’ but, ‘Get along by yourself - however, I will be near you.’ There should be a dialogue between the generations. Modern society has discontinued this dialogue. The schools have made this situation worse. They have split up the community into educated and uneducated people, people with diplomas and without diplomas. Even here, within UNESCO, we have the professional people, the experts, the staff, and on the other hand the administrative personnel, the secretaries. The secretaries often are interested far more keenly in the various questions than the so-called professional people. All these segregations cause people to break up into groups. In their sensitivity, the young people feel that this is not the right method. We shall have to take a close look at the whole of our system, particularly as far as education is concerned. The young people know very well what is involved. They know what they say and they know what they want in life. And here, perhaps, there is a possibility to view the future not too pessimistically. After all, the danger lies in educating in a spirit of idealism and then keeping the young people standing on the sidelines, outside actual life itself. That is how you develop, in the young, ideas which have been produced by abstractions. Later, when they enter real life, they experience a great shock. We should gradually introduce the essence of life itself into our educational system. On the other

[p. 293]

hand, we should not proceed too fast so as not to break the idealistic enthusiasm that characterizes the young. To me, every young person at any age is a source for reflection. The child who looks at you, the child who walks before you, should really be seen as our own complement. When we look at the young with these eyes, they will feel that they are supported by us.

And is there reason for optimism?

Yes, indeed there is.