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19. Masaya Sato
Professor Masaya Sato was born October 27, 1932. He was graduated in 1963 in psychology from the Department of Sociology at Keio University in Tokyo. He specialized in experimental psychology and could be called a Skinnerian in outlook. He is member of the Japanese Academy for Psychology, member of the Japanese Academy of Animal Psychology, and member of the Japanese Academy of Conditioned Reflexes. He took part in a special team, known as Cosmo Brain, at Keio University - where he teaches - about which details are given in our conversation. Professor Sato estimated that present-day Japan counts some 4,000 psychologists for a population of well over 100 million. Clinical psychologists are only to be found in some of the well-known Japanese hospitals. One of Professor Sato's best-known books is Principles of Behavior and Their Application for Everyone.
What exactly is the Cosmo Brain group of which you have been part since 1971?
You could say we are mostly behavioral scientists, but there are also some businessmen who are interested in the practical application of psychology.
What is the goal of this group of ten specialists?
Most people are interested in what I would call commonsense psychology. Our newspapers and popular magazines are full of this kind of easily understandable explanations of psychology. On the other hand there is small interest in deeper approaches to scientific psychology.
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Is psychology a popular study among young people?
I guess that there are perhaps some four thousand professional psychologists in Japan. About one-third of these work at the universities and teach. We have no practicing clinical psychologists in Japan. There may be some of them connected with a very few hospitals. But the profession of the psychoanalyst is not protected by our social-medical system, which means that even a layman can perform psychoanalysis. In other words, traditional Japanese academic psychology is essentially experimental psychology. The scientists are interested in sensory perception and learning processes, but not in the real problems of the human mind, of human behavior, or of human society.
Is this so because Japanese tradition has it that men and women prefer to keep their emotional problems to themselves?
Yes.
People are ashamed of their emotional problems, then, and hide them. But does this include from doctors?
Yes, that is correct.
So the real goal of the Cosmo Brain group could be -
- to study the real problems of human behavior and human society and to explain the workings to a public as wide as possible. Our aim is to bring modern psychology in direct contact with the real problems of today's society. To make these problems more accessible for people to examine them and to understand them. In other words, to scrutinize today's realities by modern psychological means.
Cosmo Brain, then, tries to obtain a wider appreciation among the Japanese public for these matters.
That is one of our important goals.
You concentrate no doubt on the realities of modern Japanese society.
Yes.
And do you feel that your group has achieved some results among the general public during the first three years of its existence?
To my regret, we did not. The Japanese do not seem to be interested in a scientific way of thinking or in the system of scientific analysis. They are not
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interested in obtaining more knowledge about themselves or about others. Of course, there are the usual superficial contacts among people, but they do not examine each other's problems in depth.
Have some of your findings been published?
Not yet. Perhaps in the near future, two or three years from now.
Psychiatrist José M. Delgado believes that the most important task for modern science is to protect the individual in our exploding society.
I completely agree with Delgado's view.
Do you feel then that in the last part of the twentieth century, Japan with the explosion of its technoeconomic society, succeeds in protecting the soul of individual young Japanese?
This is an extremely difficult question. It is a very dangerous situation. While young people are growing up, we destroy them at the same time. Perhaps the most difficult problem is to prevent culture from being destroyed simultaneously. Without culture a human being ceases to be human.
But there is the influx of American pop-art, rock music, blue jeans, and so on. Watching Japanese television makes this clear. How does this all affect your unique culture?
These are very dangerous matters indeed. But it should be realized that our society is a very mixed one. It is unique because of its uniformity and its homogeneous forms. Because, as you well know, prior to Japan's modernization and entry into world society we had a history based on the isolation of our islands, while we knew no division into social classes as in other Asian lands.
As in India?
Or Europe. This basic homogeniety is so deep and strong that when some of us are being influenced, for instance, by American habits or American music, they drag everyone else along with them. Perhaps this is mostly an unconscious process, but it happens this way. To be the same is the way to live. The American way of life, from the way youngsters dress, to the use of Coca-Cola, or the easy way in life-attitudes is considered convenient in Japan, or to use Skinner's term, is ‘reinforcing.’ So, especially following the outcome of World War Two, with most people in Japan hungry and
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having little or no hope for the future, when the Americans arrived with their chocolate bars and cigarettes, that is where the start of the American influence on Japanese life began. Our society, in fact, has only a very thin veneer and does not run deep. If parts of our society decline, begin to move downward, it has no strong supports elsewhere and will move downhill all along the line, whereas other societies, if one part declines it will be sustained through other sectors.
Would you say then that the Japanese lack a full development of inner feelings or inner strength?
Yes, and these American imports offer us only pleasure, but do not give us joy, human joy. After all, pleasure remains on the level of animal life. Joy makes a human being truly function.
That is a poetic concept. Were aspects like these also included in the studies of the Cosmo Brain group?
Not systematically.
Would you say the Japanese are pragmatic?
We Japanese have two sides: we are at times pragmatic and at times superpragmatic.
What specifically did your study group consider in relation to the Japanese mind?
We analyzed psychologically the world we are living in. We tried to analyze reality, day-to-day life. We saw two major streams in today's society: one is the scientific trends, and the other could be described as the liberalization of the individual, who, in the case of Japan, is now free from the feudal system of old times. The United States is an appropriate example of this development, because after freeing themselves from a colonial power, Britain, they gained their particular form of liberty. I think that the crisis of our times is caused by a collision of the liberalization of the individual and the rapid scientific developments we see all around us. As a result of our highly developed modern technology, man is more and more used and even controlled by machines.
For instance: I recently visited Paris, and what struck me was the different way in which the Métro operates in comparison to its Japanese counterpart in Tokyo; subway doors open automatically when a train stops. Everyone waits till that happens and then goes out. In Paris I noticed that the doors can
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be pushed open by subway riders. In other words, to again borrow Skinner's term, what Parisians do is engage in ‘operant activity.’
The disadvantage of our modern age is that there is little or no room for operant behavior on behalf of the individual.
In other words, what you mean is that modern society seems to do everything for you and very little is left to personal initiative. In what ways do you feel this situation further damages the development of the human personality?
When there is no room left for personal initiative, operant behavior, human beings will become more and more passive. Through operant behavior people display initiative, are active, and adapt positively to the environment. The development of human history is ‘operant history.’ Operant behavior made man into what he has become so far. But if operant behavior should be lost, human beings will become mere appendixes of machines.
It is apparent that nowadays we have many choices. We possess what we call ‘free’ choices. But actually, we cannot choose. We hesitate to reach a decision. How to select among the many many possibilities? In a way, we seem not to know anymore what decision to make. This turns us toward the behavior in the ‘operantless age.’
During the days of our feudal system, which was a special Japanese peculiarity, there were no choices to make. Take our traditional handicrafts. Each person learned to do one particular thing and had no other choice than to do the same thing over and over again.
From generation to generation.
Exactly. But now, in our modern society, it is hard to find such a handicraft specialist anymore. Granted that the human being has become superior to animals, perhaps the time has arrived to investigate deeper why this occurred. One of our main features is language. Let us touch Skinner's theory of the discriminative stimuli.
The question arises as to how human beings or animals react when there is no discriminative stimulus at all. Human beings will create them whereas animals, which are not creative, will not. Being able to create discriminitive stimuli means two things: language and creativity. And, because humans can create discriminative stimuli, I agree with Skinner that language is a discriminative stimulus. Because we possess language, we can describe, for instance, our environment. In Skinner's words, this means we possess a ‘verbal-tact-operant.’ In relation to the environment, we have the ability to create, while with the assistance of language, we do create our culture.
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And Noam Chomsky?
I do not feel we should think in terms of Chomsky versus Skinner. Chomsky considers different aspects of the uses of language. I have not read Chomsky's thoughts on the relationship between language and culture. Chomsky himself stressed that the purpose of language is not only communication, as you have mentioned yourself.
Skinner and Chomsky have various thoughts in common. Similarly, Skinner and Konrad Lorenz perhaps have entirely different backgrounds, but nevertheless they both end up in recognizing the importance of culture in human development.
I just had this thought: Lorenz based much of his research on the study of geese; Skinner spent half his life watching pigeons; Mao Tse-tung has been working with 800 million people. From which ‘experiments’ do you feel we can draw the correct conclusions?
I prefer Skinner among the three.
But, you are aware of course that Skinner is accused of maintaining a fascist approach to the programming of society. Margaret Mead asked in my conversation with her: ‘Who programs Skinner?’ In other words, doesn't Skinner's theory conjure up Orwellian visions of Big Brother?
That indeed is a critical point. To some people it looks as if Skinner would like to play God. But this is not what he really means. Skinner's principal point is the interaction between organism and environment. He believes that we must behave as operantly as possible towards our environment. The environment, according to Skinner, selects good behavior. If man fails in this respect he will be destroyed.
Would you describe ‘good behavior’ as being in harmony with the environment?
There are three main factors: life, survival, and human culture. If one of them is destroyed, the others will follow. So the code should be: love oneself and love life; to love human society and to love nature.
But what still bothers me is the comparison between Mao and Skinner. I guess one important difference between them is that Mao did possess and develop the power to program and guide one quarter of mankind into a livable society, while Skinner continues to write books, and plays the organ in his basement.
Mao has applied Skinner's techniques, but I don't know whether or not he is fully aware of it.
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Also in brainwashing?
Indeed. Mao developed a highly efficient brainwashing system for the Chinese people.
If anyone has succeeded in promoting survival - which after all is also Skinner's principal aim in life, the survival of humanity - it has been Mao Tse-tung and his Little Red Book guide to life for the Chinese people, it seems to me.
That is correct.
You seem to be guided very much by some of the same theoretical background as Professor Skinner.
Well, I do very much agree with Skinner's theory on the vital importance of operant behavior, the appreciation in life of love and beauty, and the necessity of being sensitive to one's environment as conditions to the survival of man. If human behavior were no longer reinforced, it would simply mean the end of humanity.
Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the human race?
I am neither a pessimist nor an optimist. If the human race came to an end, owing to our nature or to some peculiar feature we have, we would probably say that we could not help it. We rule the world. But if one looks at the present state of affairs on this globe, then we could very well conclude that man is heading in the wrong direction - and not necessarily by his own doing. It could very well be that man some day will return to his original animal status and that will be the end.
What do you see as the task or duty of the media?
The tendency is not to have answers or a response to our problems right away in the mass communications media. When you create a television program, like the one you made on the Club of Rome, no answers are given immediately.
No feedback.
It is behavior without reinforcement.
In Skinner's terms, television does not lead necessarily to ‘positive reinforcement.’
Television is mostly passive, with very little feedback. There is no
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response. It could become harmful if it stimulated to action. So, in order to maintain operant behavior, man should be conditioned from very early childhood onward to be active, to be fully alive. Of course, this lies within the responsibility of adults and parents. Overprotection of kids is very bad, even dangerous. It destroys their progress toward active behavior.
It makes them passive, in other words.
I believe, for instance, that television is good for educated adults, but destructive for growing children.
You realize that in the United States young and even very young children spend an average of six to eight hours a day before the television.
That is very dangerous. It creates passive, nonoperant behavior.
Do you believe modern mass media could assist in helping promote positive reinforcement of behavior in readers or television viewers? And I do not mean by broadcasting quiz programs!
People should be taught to think for themselves. A person can be watching television and actively using his brain at the same time; in Skinner's term, watching television in ‘covered-operant,’ or thinking.
In other words, the mass media should be geared much more to making the reader or TV viewer think for himself. How does one stimulate individual thinking?
By conditioning.
How?
All behavior should be reinforced immediately by interaction with others.
Then how should we revolutionize our educational system?
One way is to confront children with the pleasures of creating things. Children should do things with their hands. They should be simultaneously watching others doing things. They should be actively involved.
So we are back to the handicrafts from feudal times all over again.
As a matter of fact, this topic is something that should be actively considered by the Club of Rome. I think what they should point out more than ever before is what the coming crisis means for you and me; my family and neighbors.
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That is the real crisis we are confronted with: reaching every individual on earth.
What the Club of Rome should determine is, What, in effect, is the crisis in which the individual, the human being, finds himself? What does the crisis mean to you and me, the family, the school, the community, the people as a whole?
We must learn to think of the community as a Gemeinschaft. Owing to their feudal system of past times, the Japanese had quite a good start in this direction, although from observing the Japanese in our streets today one would hardly say that they originated from a small community system.
I find your people rather cold to strangers, a visitor like me.
Not cold. We are perhaps rather reserved toward strangers. We attach ourselves to very intimate and personal things. We are often very close to each other. And if we do have these good sides, we of course have our dark sides like everyone else. What we should do now is examine what we had before; we should make efforts to rethink our culture, not just say that it was an outmoded feudal system and rightly has been changed. We have to analyze the constructive aspects of our culture and revitalize them. Do you know the meaning of the Japanese word ‘amae’?
No.
Amae means the relaying of confidential feelings without the use of language. In other words, the person spoken to is expected to understand what I want to relay without using words. We Japanese harbor our inmost feelings inside ourselves, inside the soul. We often find ourselves at great difficulty in expressing ourselves.
What, in your view, would be the most appropriate way for foreigners to study Japan; to make a beginning at understanding your very very special ways and culture?
One way is to understand our enka songs. We, for instance, feel that European music is quite mechanistic, machinelike, while our traditional Japanese music, which you find to some extent in popular enka, is perhaps also ‘constructed,’ but nonetheless reflects the delicate mind of the Japanese.
Do you feel Japanese youths are aware of some of the things you have just explained?
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Unfortunately, people do not change as quickly as their environment does.
To bring them back into harmony with their environment: that is our task.
Indeed, and here I am a pessimist.
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